Deoxys
Player Sixteen
Posts: 232
|
Post by Deoxys on Mar 9, 2019 12:19:24 GMT
As for your other question about threat level, I think that by this point in time I played a better game than most of the players on the jury, but in this game perception is reality and given my perception in the early days on Mystic and how I was at the start of this game, I did not think that I could sit next to any of the Mystics who made the merge at the end and be able to make a convincing argument that I had played better than they did, or think I would get as much credit for the game I played if I were sitting next to them. The downside to the fact I was doing so much work behind the scenes rather than out in front is that perception of me was not that of a major player until late in the game when the dominoes started following; certainly that was by design as it allowed me much more ability to make moves without the risk of being taken out as a threat, but it also meant that I was always very aware of what my perception was in the game and so how it would appear if I were to have instead chosen to go to the end with Hoopa and/or Celebi, or yourself, or Meltan for example. Those were all viable paths for me, but I think I was able to avoid putting myself in a position where it appeared I was just following someone to the end. So basically, I do think I outplayed others that I was worried about going to the end with, but I think I did so both *because* I cut them before the end, and because perception of me was such that it would have been hard for me to show agency in the game had I gone to the end with a bigger player.
|
|
|
Post by Tapu Lele on Mar 9, 2019 13:19:54 GMT
In short: I've spoken about my vote against you. The Meltan elimination was predetermined, but only so because of your elimination beforehand-- I think this folds back into its own logic. I didn't need to influence this.
From my perspective it didn't matter which of Hoopa and Poi went to jury in the next TC. I had a preference for Hoopa, but when I learned the counter was Poipole all I thought I needed to do was count votes. By the end I correctly counted Hoopa having the majority and that was fine. The idol play was unexpected but after learning that Poi was the counter, it literally didn't matter.
During the next TC against Hoopa I continuously reassured her that the votes would be 3-2 against Deoxys rather than falling back against her. I did this because I knew the Deoxys vote didn't have enough traction. If Hoopa knew she was under threat from either myself or Celebi, sue was liable to make much bolder moves than to float Deo's name calmly (as much as you raise the idea of others dragging me to FTC, her seeking support for a vote against me or even Celebi would have been substantially more viable than Deo, if Hoopa had known to seek them).
I hope this covers off question 4. I think my ramble from before sleeping covered off the other 3 questions mostly.
|
|
|
Post by Cobalion on Mar 9, 2019 15:30:53 GMT
Regigigas, you did not interpret that question correctly. What I asked was how you could justify having two trainers-- Tate AND Liza-- instead of one! Also, what do you have to say about Deoxys calling you a rude and offensive dick? Do you think that's an accurate portrayal of yourself?
Deoxys, do you think Tapu Lele 'burned' less people because of her decision to be less strategic? I recall in Meltan's Jury thread, he mentioned that you yourself were something like what you've been calling Regigigas. And for that matter, why did you not bother to change the impressions of the Jury while you were still in the game? If up to half the people would have beaten you because of your perception at the time, what does that say about your game?
To Tapu Lele: Are there any pre-merge votes you had a hand in? Also, what do you think of Deoxys saying he has a better social game than you? By all means, that should invalidate your case to win, right?
|
|
Regigigas
Player Eight
Chewing bubblegum
Posts: 338
|
Post by Regigigas on Mar 9, 2019 16:00:02 GMT
two... trainers... yeah okay well it was actually one person inhabiting two bodies. They're actually twin sisters that share a psychic link and have merged into the same person in early childhood. I actually did have an advantage because they were able to psychically communicate with me even after they left the game, but I don't think it had too much of an impact on my descisions.
--
I don't think I am rude and offensive. Like I said elsewhere, I was cold to deoxys because he never really showed that much interest when I tried to talk with him, so I just accepted he was in this game as more of a gamebot person and he didn't really want to spend time on the social stuff and just played along with what little he was giving me.
Part of my strategy was to be blunt and to the point when talking strategy so that it hopefully by putting trust in people I would get it back. Some people, like you, were very receptive to this approach, and some people, like poipole, felt more threatened by it. But in my fluffposting, I just wanted to be fun or silly, not offensive.
The whole "Reggie is a dick" thing is kind of catching me off guard. Did I seem like a dick when I came clean to you and asked us not to yell at each other in the last 30 minutes of F8? My intention has to been to exploit ingame conflicts, but not cause or get involved with personal ones.
Even if it's just a pokemon game I know we're talking with real people and small things can make people feel hurt or anxious just like in real life, so whenever I was aware of something like that I wanted to resolve it. The whole cobalion hate cult thing was making me feel bad (angry!!) irl, so I went to you to try to resolve that so I could have peace of mind.
I never intended to be a dick or hurt people, and I still haven't really heard any specific names on who I hurt so I don't know where to go. Really, my intention has been the opposite.
|
|
|
Post by Cobalion on Mar 9, 2019 16:27:06 GMT
I'm not accusing you of being a dick, Regigigas. I'm only asking about what I've heard from other people-- and in this thread, no less. I know for a fact that you've been exploiting in-game conflicts, and I don't have a problem with it. I will, however, look into accusations if they arise in my Jury thread, which they did.
To be honest with you, I don't particularly care about the Cobalion Hate Cult. I gave people a perfectly good reason to hate me, and since there have been followers of Meltan one way or another, it was a perfectly legitimate response to an unexpected stimuli.
So on that note, how do you think your social game compares to Tapu Lele and Deoxys's? Is yours really the worst of the bunch, as they've claimed?
Next, what would you have done if the plan we had made worked to an extent (With you flipping in case of a tie, and me flipping next-- which never got put into motion), where you flip, but I don't reciprocate it? How would you deal with a loss of status in both groups? Doesn't your strategy depend on having other people to blame?
|
|
Regigigas
Player Eight
Chewing bubblegum
Posts: 338
|
Post by Regigigas on Mar 9, 2019 17:05:44 GMT
You might not care about the hate cult, but I did. I felt bad getting irrationally angry at someone, so I put a stop to it for my own sanity.
How does my social game compare to tapu lele and deoxys?
I'll talk about my game first.
My social game "strategy" was to basically be fun and silly. I wanted to have at around one thing per post that I sent that made me laugh, because it made the game more fun for me if I was laughing, and hopefully it made the game more fun for you too. I did silly things across the board: You got a lootcrate with a custom skin, hoopa and I became basketball stars, I dated Tapu Lele and Vegan Celebi (At the same time!!! infidelity alert!!!), uxie and victini and I had a great time talking about gameshows, and poipole a bit too. I think my social game kind of dropped off as the game really progressed towards the end, but I was kind of running out of mobile data and getting busier, so I really didn't have the resources to keep it up as much as I maybe was doing in early merge.
I don't have regrets about my social game, and I think it was the best I possibly could have done. Other then maybe that I kind of gave up on deoxys.
That is a hard question to answer since I know literally nothing about deoxys' social game other than 1. he was cold with me 2. apparently he is mespirit's evil mother? wtf is going on here 3. celebi kinda liked him.
Tapu lele played a great social game, and I instantly pinged that out the moment I met her on valor. I did my best, but she probably did better. I'm not crazy enough to think I was even close to being the most social player here. My strengths are primarily in strategy and I'm going to own that, but I hope I at least did pretty good.
That's a funny question to ask, considering that is basically exactly what happened in this game. The way I saw the sides at the time I asked that question were as follows:
[Reggie, Uxie, Deoxys, Meltan, Tapu] vs. [Coba, Cel, Hoops, Mespirit, Poipole], (switch poipole and deoxys for accuracy's sake)
Either way, we actually came through on that deal in the opposite order you suggested. You "flipped" on mespirit, and I flipped on uxie.
Let's go to the thought bank: let's say that meltan got voted out in a 6-4 revote and I flipped.
If deoxys' story is true, the next vote still probably would have been mespirit, someone who is technically on your side, because she was getting targeted for low activity, and not really being seen by anyone as on their side. So I think things would have worked out, in the practical sense.
In the more abstract sense, which is what I think you're really after, yeah, I knew I was offering you a nice big opportunity to stab me. You had so much blood on your hands already, (you were blamed for the blood of volc, lugia, AND victini), so I knew I was making a bit of a deal with the devil. But like I said, I don't judge people by the reputation they have, because you can't always trust it. Thanks to meltan, Celebi had the reputation of being a big threat and was being targeted for it, but the way the game played out, she ended up kind of an oddball out and more of a social follower player who actually made for a great person to work with.
I wanted to judge you by MY experience with you, since that's the only kind of judgement I trust, so I came to you with some bold stuff and let you react to it. And once you came for me (when I told you the truth that deoxys was coming after you), I saw that your reputation was deserved, and my judgement was made.
Feels like I still haven't answered the question. Let's say you totally burn me (like you were planning on doing?). In that case, I would probably still appeal to you by saying that you are being seen as a threat, people are trying to take you out, and I am one of the only people who will help you when your allies abandon you, while at the same time going and "blaming" you among the other crowd, especially Uxie, who already had a conflict with you, and probably wouldn't sell me out to you, as well as tapu, who was quite loyal to me. The idea being at that point I would only need to survive a few votes before people would start turning on people like you and hoopa anyways because around F8/F7 is when it's time for threat genocide, and if my reputation was destroyed, I just needed to slide by until then. I would also really REALLY play the "impulsive newbie mistake" card to the meltan/poipole/etc. group, which is exactly what I did when I flipped on uxie.
You're correct that my strategy depends on having other people to blame - and when they don't exist, that means I have to create them, like I did with deoxys VS. Celebi/Hoopa around F6. So even if I start running out of conflicts, I had the currency to make more.
|
|
|
Post by Cobalion on Mar 9, 2019 17:20:59 GMT
That's fair. Can you name a few conflicts you ran into on the way to this Final Tribal, and how you overcame them?
Deoxys, how do you respond to Regigigas claiming you've had the worst social game of the three? Do you think his opinion is influenced by the circumstances around him and that he stands to benefit from you being labeled as harsh and cold? Or do his words have some truth to them?
|
|
Regigigas
Player Eight
Chewing bubblegum
Posts: 338
|
Post by Regigigas on Mar 9, 2019 19:47:22 GMT
That's a rather pointed question.
I don't know for sure if deoxys has played a worse social game then I have because I haven't seen his social game at it's best. All I know is I did my best.
|
|
|
Post by Cobalion on Mar 9, 2019 20:21:27 GMT
That's fair, I apologize if I misinterpreted your answer to the previous question as such.
|
|
|
Post by Tapu Lele on Mar 9, 2019 21:45:13 GMT
@cob, I disagree that Deo had a stronger social game than me - we're in FTC, and the onus is on him to sell his game as the best it can possibly be. The way that he's undermining the strength of my social game is coloured by rhetoric and his closeness to the finish line and is certainly not a statement of fact. This is part of the game. If those are factors you find more important in a social game than the factors I've put forward then it's going to be pretty difficult for me to swing your vote around without absolutely misrepresenting my gameplay.
And I was in two TCs prior to the merge, and yes in Team Valor1.0 I was part of the push towards Buzzwole over Lugia or Mewtwo. Most members of the tribe had ~2 people they would consider voting, and I stuck firm to my preference not to vote Mewtwo or Lugia and instead to vote Buzzwole.
He conveniently tried to form a countervote against Mewtwo entirely on the merits of his challenge abilities, which caused a lot of people to lose faith in him. But hey I'd argue I was fairly instrumental in positioning that vote even before then.
The Arti vote was instrumented by Meltan and very much fell into our laps; to say anything other than this would be fairly misrepresentative. Our only other chance would have been working with Arti back against Meltan. And neither of us had cause to trust Arti more than Meltan, so it was not going to happen.
|
|
|
Post by Cobalion on Mar 9, 2019 22:26:06 GMT
So, from what you've told me, there were only two votes that you genuinely had a hand in deciding (Beyond pre-determined ones, that is.)-- the Buzzwole vote, and the Hoopa vote. Mostly everything else was left up to what other people have orchestrated, including one tribal where someone from the opposing tribe had put in more work to save you than you did yourself.
Is that a fair assessment, or did you do any more than just process votes that other people had set up and be okay with them as they went along? I'm not trying to unfairly target you or anything, it's a genuine question.
|
|
|
Post by Tapu Lele on Mar 9, 2019 22:34:00 GMT
No that's fair, I can tell that you're probing and not attacking. I think that's a very summary explanation of what I accomplished and may be understated, but it's not incorrect or necessarily unfair.
|
|
|
Post by Cobalion on Mar 9, 2019 23:24:04 GMT
Thank you for your honesty. I think I'll wait for Regigigas and Deoxys to respond to my questions before I ask anything else.
|
|
|
Post by Tapu Lele on Mar 9, 2019 23:39:17 GMT
Thank you for tearing my egg open and staring into my soul. This has been a really good experience. I'll keep my eyes open for any more questions.
|
|
Regigigas
Player Eight
Chewing bubblegum
Posts: 338
|
Post by Regigigas on Mar 9, 2019 23:49:46 GMT
I'd be happy to misinterpret this question as well! Conflicts including other people: Tapu VS. Celebi
I think at one point in time, one of these people said they didn't like the other, but then they made up and became friends. Almost not worth mentioning, but I picked up on it and put it in my confessional as something I could potentially have exploited if it had become a thing. Uxie VS. Cobalion/CelebiYou guys both made it clear you didn't want to work with each other, even if some less informed people said "oh no they're over it". I had the option of idoling out Celebi, or voting out uxie. I chose to vote out uxie because I put (too much!) trust into you and (just enough!) trust into celebi, and I figured losing one ally was fine if I gained two. Also read my speech @ F9 if you're thirsty for more reasons I voted uxie. I actually think I could have safely allowed either side to win this conflict, since coba (that's you!) were already on the chopping block, and uxie wouldn't have had her idol anymore. Meltan's Army VS. Coba's Army
I don't even know if you were that much of a leader, but perception is reality. Casualties: One foot soldier, One Civilian, One officer, Both generals. (Volc, Mespirit, Uxie, Coba and Meltan). My original hope was that this war would take out big threat players, but it didn't really do that at all. And once you came after me, it was a good time to cut this pointless war short and do things properly. Volc VS. InstinctYeah, some problems just solve themselves. Deoxys VS. Coba/Celebi/Hoopa
I thought I had put enough trust in you guys that I could prove my worth and alert you that you were being targeted next, but I was mistaken, and this one backfired on me, and quickly became Reggie VS. Coba/Celebi/Hoopa.The way I overcame this one was by showing deoxys I was a rational player, making up with tapu lele, telling poipole and meltan that I had made a newbie mistake. After you were voted out, Celebi became my deep ally, and Hoopa... well hoopa wasn't my ally, but she never really came after me again. So I'm not only capable of exploiting conflicts, I'm capable of defusing them as well. Reggie VS. Deoxys
Wasn't actually a real conflict, and deoxys, sitting on his high throne, knew that it was not worth his time. But for Celebi and Hoopa, it was a good enough story to keep them going after Deoxys and Poipole (who they saw as a pair, not sure if they were really a pair but it seemed that way and I sold it that way a little bit), and keeping the heat off of me.
|
|
|
Post by Cobalion on Mar 10, 2019 1:41:40 GMT
Alright, this question is similar to the one I asked Deoxys, and goes to both Regigigas and Tapu Lele:
How much of your prior experience (or lack thereof) should I factor into my vote tonight? Do you deserve more credit because you went in with less of an idea of what to do, or should I only consider the games you already played?
|
|
Regigigas
Player Eight
Chewing bubblegum
Posts: 338
|
Post by Regigigas on Mar 10, 2019 2:11:23 GMT
Literally I think we are all on a more or less level field. Deoxys claims he has never done well in these games before and no offense but I believe him. He doesn't come across like a super power player like some of you guys but still played very well. I came into the game sort of knowing what I was doing, but my excellent trainer boosted me to a level where I had mostly everything under control with my game, though there's still room for improvement. Having everyone examine my game from all angles helps with that.
I want you to vote for the person who you think has played the best game in this game, because that's what I've been counting on you for ever since you sent me that PM telling me that I needed to make some moves in this game for myself and make a name for myself. Even though we ended up as rivals a little bit, I still saw you as a mentor ever since you left the game, and I've been trying to make you proud, in a way - very similar to how I viewed my trainer. I hope I have lived up to the standards that were set for me, and I want your vote in this game as a rite of passage that I've made it.
|
|
|
Post by Cobalion on Mar 10, 2019 2:33:12 GMT
Deoxys, could you answer the question I asked a while ago?
I also have another follow-up-- how much of the power you had in the game came of your own volition, and how much of your good fortune came from luck or the efforts of other people who might have seen you as a 'weak player', so to speak. You did say you were in danger pf going home on that very first vote if it weren't for multiple people sticking their necks out for you, so I'm interested to see your take on that.
|
|
Deoxys
Player Sixteen
Posts: 232
|
Post by Deoxys on Mar 10, 2019 2:41:31 GMT
Yeah, sorry Coba - was going through these from the bottom up and this thread kept getting bumped I guess. Going to write up a response now.
|
|
|
Post by Tapu Lele on Mar 10, 2019 2:45:58 GMT
I agree with the suggestion that we're all on roughly even footing. My lack of knowledge going into this is valuable for context, but I don't think that it devalues the way I played; it just justifies the way that my approach to the game shifted and adapted fairly whimsically as I felt my way through it. Even with Reggie and Deoxys having a more detailed approach on the strategic side of the game, I think that I've been clever enough and nimble enough to adapt as I've learned more about the format. This is a game of perspectives and context is vital; but outside of this I would suggest that levels of experience absolutely shouldn't be a factor. May the Poke who played the best win.
|
|
Deoxys
Player Sixteen
Posts: 232
|
Post by Deoxys on Mar 10, 2019 2:52:49 GMT
Deoxys, do you think Tapu Lele 'burned' less people because of her decision to be less strategic? I recall in Meltan's Jury thread, he mentioned that you yourself were something like what you've been calling Regigigas. And for that matter, why did you not bother to change the impressions of the Jury while you were still in the game? If up to half the people would have beaten you because of your perception at the time, what does that say about your game?
---
I do think there are almost certainly less people who currently feel burned or betrayed by Tapu than there are who feel that was about me. Her way of playing this game is totally valid and I think there are trade-offs to both; being someone who is willing to get their hands dirty means you may have a better chance of getting to the end (assuming you can avoid being a threat) but then people may well feel hard-done by you, whereas taking a more passive approach to the game allows you to get to the end without having anyone as upset with you or with an axe to grind but that may mean you have less ability to ensure you get to the end. I think Tapu played a very strong UTR game of Survivor - she made it to the end despite being pretty universally viewed as nice, kind and likable, and did so without having to betray as many people as Regi and I did.
The reason I didn't work harder to change the perception of me that existed during the game is that it very much worked in my favour in helping me get here. When Regi tried to throw me under the bus to you/Hoopa/Celebi, the common theme from you three was "That doesn't sound like you" which was important as had I been viewed as someone who might have been doping what he said, I'm sure you three would have been less keen to work with me from there and Regi probably would have succeeded in getting you to cut me after Uxie. By playing into the perception of me as someone who wasn't a power-player, was loyal, was willing to allow others to lead it allowed me to progress further into the game before it became clear that I was more than that.
I don't think it's necessarily a condemnation of my game to acknowledge that I definitely couldn't have beaten everyone on the jury or possible even most/all of the people on the jury. The jury gets to decide who wins, but the limitations of that are on the people who are there at the end, and the common theme in this game (from you, to Meltan, to Poipole, to Hoopa, to Celebi) was that people who were viewed as having a strong chance to win the game went home. By downplaying my own ability and also leaving a lot of the more out-in-front players in the game who very much could beat me at the end, I allowed myself to get deeper into the game as even when I became a threat I was not as much of one as Poipole, Hoopa or Celebi, which meant those people were targeted before I was.
|
|
|
Post by Cobalion on Mar 10, 2019 3:01:59 GMT
Okay, here's a follow-up question to Tapu Lele and Regigigas: How much should the fact that you two had trainers factor into my vote here? As Deoxys said, you both had someone on your side who could give you advice that would undoubtedly be in your best interests, at least in the pre-merge. If you all entered the game on equal footing, then wouldn't the addition of a trainer ironically put him at an initial disadvantage?
|
|
Regigigas
Player Eight
Chewing bubblegum
Posts: 338
|
Post by Regigigas on Mar 10, 2019 3:07:41 GMT
Actually we /are/ new players so it balanced out really well. I feel like I got the advice I needed to be on a competitive level with the rest of you guys.
Also my trainer is the only reason I was able to get over the tilt of you playing an idol into winning immunity, so yeah that was pretty great. You seem like you're having too much fun with these questions. Have you considered hosting a tribal council IRL?
|
|
|
Post by Tapu Lele on Mar 10, 2019 3:23:29 GMT
It's an interesting question. In retrospect I wish I'd used my trainer for more as I sort of eased into the second half of the game -- the fact that we've had to stand on our own two feet for the last few rounds has been massive, as well.
I think it's a net neutral. The benefit of having experienced players to bounce questions and stuff off vs. the fact that we have still been thrown in the deep end and played our own game for the last several rounds is a factor, but I don't think one that gives us an unfair advantage particularly for FTC.
|
|
|
Post by Cobalion on Mar 10, 2019 4:56:30 GMT
I an having a lot of fun with these questions, thank you very much-- but that's also because I'm wildly indecisive and want to make the best decision possible.
Alright, back to the personal questions, then.
Regigigas, I persobally noticed a very strong start from you in certain areas of the Final Tribal Council, but in others, you've teally sunken low or fallen behind-- with the prime example being the Uxie conversation and how you essentially alienated him when he was coming in wanting to vote for you. Can you explain this?
Tapu Lele, I think you're aware that while you've got a great FTC going so far, you can't undo the game you've previously played. How are you feeling about your chances so far? Do you feel as if your strong social game can make up for your admittedly weak strategic game?
Deoxys, there's been talk with Meltan about you being cold and insensitive.in fact, there's been talk all throughout this about how you might be some emotionless robot. And quite frankly, the fact that your most fond memory of me is me clarifying the Super Bowl controversy to you is, to be blunt, sad, because I know from experience that there have been further, more in-depth talks with Victini-- someone I spent about two rounds with and idoled out-- than I had with you, someone who I spent seven rounds with and trusted with knowledge of an idol. Can you explain how someone who had no reason to speak to me and who I eventually idoled out was able to have more engaging conversations with me than you were? I'm not trying to stroke my own ego here or insult you-- I'm just curious as to what your thought process is in this regard.
|
|