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Post by Wallace on Mar 9, 2019 2:13:03 GMT
Don't post in anyone else's question thread, juror. Ask all your questions here.
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Meltan
Player Twelve
Posts: 216
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Post by Meltan on Mar 9, 2019 3:15:06 GMT
Good to see y'all! the three people I had an alliance with good to see ya first of all, Deo, congratulations - Regi, Tapu, same to ya, congratulations you did exactly what you said you'd do Oh... Wait a minute Well, our alliance was going to be 1, 2, 3... 4 I got 7 You forgot about me somewhere along the way
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Meltan
Player Twelve
Posts: 216
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Post by Meltan on Mar 9, 2019 3:15:22 GMT
Did I getcha for a second there? That speech just seemed to fit too perfectly to pass up If you can name the Survivor who made it, you get a bonus point (doesn't go towards the Jury vote, but a point nonetheless) My vote is completely undecided at this point - I know a lot of Jurors say that, but in this case it's real. I think all three of you played incredible games and I'm glad it's you three who made it here, because this was the FTC I was hyped for. Questions will be here soon. Unfortunately no more pictures though I'm away for the weekend so I'm stuck on phone, and I didn't prep any further than this.
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Deoxys
Player Sixteen
Posts: 232
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Post by Deoxys on Mar 9, 2019 3:28:24 GMT
Big Tom?
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Post by Tapu Lele on Mar 9, 2019 3:30:16 GMT
Meltan I'm pretty sure it's illegal to be this amazing ♥
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Meltan
Player Twelve
Posts: 216
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Post by Meltan on Mar 9, 2019 3:33:05 GMT
Deoxys, I have to start with you here because I really want to get this out of the way. I like to think I don't take things personally, and I came into FTC telling myself everything should be judged on gameplay, personal slights shouldn't come into it - this is the one time I think I need to break that, then it's all game from here.
Not much in Survivor actually hurts me, but the one thing that did was the way you treated me after the Uxie vote. The vote itself I don't mind - I'm actually seriously impressed by the way you played double agent in the first two rounds, especially pulling off the bluff after voting against us in the merge round - but after that, there was a window of time where I'd just been completely broken by the vote and started talking to you about it.
and you kept up the bluff
I'd just unexpectedly lost one of my best friends in the game, been blindsided by two people I thought had my back, and just had my entire gameplan obliterated. I was now at the bottom, I knew it, and there was no reason to be lying to me especially when it was a lie that could easily be disproven (as it was when I checked around during the conversation). There were multiple points in that conversation where I told you I knew it was you, I told you it felt like you were just rubbing salt in the wound, and I pleaded with you to stop and just be frank with me - but what I got in response was you claiming that I was a terrible ally for doubting you and repeated attempts to guilt-trip me into believing you.
I could not see any gameplan reason for doing that, and it scarred me so much that I spent the next two rounds trying to look for ways to vote you out. If you can explain to me here why you did it and how it made sense from a strategic perspective, it could go a long way in making me want to vote for you.
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Meltan
Player Twelve
Posts: 216
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Post by Meltan on Mar 9, 2019 3:33:27 GMT
Bonus point goes to Deo
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Meltan
Player Twelve
Posts: 216
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Post by Meltan on Mar 9, 2019 3:47:54 GMT
Tapu - I'm probably stealing this question, but I got here first so screw all y'all jurors, be faster on the trigger next time.
The general feeling on the Jury was that you were a goat. I don't like that phrase, and I don't think it really fits here anyway - fmpov, at least, you made it to an F3 where you had the strongest social game of the surviving players - something that's unbelievable given that half of the cast at F6 were social giants.
The problem is a lack of strategic game - I was hoping to see you build more on this in your opening speech, but hearing that your plan was to make it to endgame didn't help all that much because I think everyone already knew that. What I (and I think a lot of other Jurors) want to know is - did you have a plan to ensure that you made it to the end against people you could beat? If so, how did you enact that plan? If not, what would your strategy have been if you had gotten here alongside say, Poipole and Celebi?
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Deoxys
Player Sixteen
Posts: 232
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Post by Deoxys on Mar 9, 2019 3:57:28 GMT
Absolutely, let me explain.
I'll start off by saying I do truly apologize that how I acted bothered you on a personal level, as I did very much aim to never get into personal attacks and to keep everything strictly business. Obviously I did not achieve that with you as it related to the Uxie vote, so I am sorry. I will explain why I acted the way I did and why I think it benefited my game, but really none of that matters relative to how I obviously made you feel so my bad on that.
As you pointed out, I very much played both sides through the first two votes, and intended on continuing to do so though the fact that Uxie had 6 votes was unexpected to me and complicated things. You see, you (and by extension Regi and Tapu) kept working with me after that vote for lack of other options, but that was only a small part of it for me. I knew that even when my lies were revealed (as they were sure to be), you three would keep working with me as long as that was your best option since you and Regi were very rational players and Tapu seemed pretty committed to that group as well. Thus, my main concerns were twofold: (a) ensure that you truly *did* have no other option; and (b) ensure that while my spot had been blown with your group that it did not get blown with the Mystic group. Those two points are related of course, so I will expand on them together. Once Uxie went out there were eight people left in the game, and Coba/Hoopa/Celebi/Poipole was a block of four - if they wanted to they could easily have reached out to you to Christy Smith me which would have left Poipole in a very powerful position between two blocks of three who each could have thought they comprised 4/7. The way to avoid that happening is to make sure that if your group tried to throw me under the bus (which you and Regi both did, not sure about Tapu) that you wouldn't be believed; I had already built up loyalty and trust with the Mystic group by having voted with them twice, the first time 'despite knowing we didn't have the numbers' so I knew that at a base level they'd already be reluctant to believe it, and this just made the story too much. I had multiple people (off the top of my head I want to say all of Hoopa/Celebi/Coba though I could be wrong) come to me kind of flabbergasted saying stuff along the lines of "So this is weird, but Regi and Meltan are saying you had said you were voting with them both times, that you claim to have voted Coba...and also somehow are currently claiming to have voted Celebi? Doesn't make any sense but I guess they're trying." I think this is also around when Poipole was talking about being confused why you and Regi seemed to think I was claiming the 7th Coba vote because that didn't make sense either.
In short, by sticking to my story I made it much less likely that I would be exposed to the Hoopa group (who just as you were prior to that vote had no reason to suspect I'd ever be working with you; the first thing I did post-merge was go to them and tell them you were trying to build up forces to make a run at Hoopa, and I made it very clear in all my conversations with them throughout the merge how much I didn't want to work with your side at all). By doing that, I avoided having both sides decide to call a cease-fire to get me out, if anything helped build up even more dislike between the two sides since a few of the Mystics seemed to get defensive on my behalf about the 'stories' Regi was telling about me, and so allowed me to keep playing both sides without arousing suspicions from Coba/Hoopa/Celebi until later I hoped.
But again - having said all of that, none of that excuses making you feel like shit as that genuinely was not my intention and was not something I wanted to do in this game as I don't think there's any room for personal attacks. So I apologize genuinely.
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Meltan
Player Twelve
Posts: 216
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Post by Meltan on Mar 9, 2019 4:11:23 GMT
Regi - Although my vote is undecided, if I had to cast my vote after the opening speeches, I think you would get it. Your flip on the Uxie vote was decidedly less flashy than Deo's, but I think it was just as impactful, especially given that I'm not as sure as most people seem to be that Poi would have voted out Uxie in the revote.
Your strategy explanation was excellent and resonated with me a lot, because those stages were pretty much precisely what you did to me and in my case you pulled it off to perfection.
I do still have some criticisms and a couple of related questions, though. The strategy doesn't really seem to take into account problems with looking like a snake - specifically, putting a target on your back not so much for being a threat, but because nobody trusted you, and this very nearly got you booted at F8. Did you have a planned countermeasure to that? Or were you just hoping that threat level would take precedence over perceived untrustworthiness?
My other question is somewhat unrelated but still about your opener - could you expand on your thoughts about Poipole being a good player to take to the end?
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Post by Tapu Lele on Mar 9, 2019 4:23:57 GMT
Tapu - I'm probably stealing this question, but I got here first so screw all y'all jurors, be faster on the trigger next time. The general feeling on the Jury was that you were a goat. I don't like that phrase, and I don't think it really fits here anyway - fmpov, at least, you made it to an F3 where you had the strongest social game of the surviving players - something that's unbelievable given that half of the cast at F6 were social giants. The problem is a lack of strategic game - I was hoping to see you build more on this in your opening speech, but hearing that your plan was to make it to endgame didn't help all that much because I think everyone already knew that. What I (and I think a lot of other Jurors) want to know is - did you have a plan to ensure that you made it to the end against people you could beat? If so, how did you enact that plan? If not, what would your strategy have been if you had gotten here alongside say, Poipole and Celebi? Uh oh I started expanding on this in Cobalion's thread gdi tapu lele In short, my strategic game leading into f3 heavily augmented my social game. I didn't have the build-up in the first two tribes to go in swinging with a superstar spectacular manipulative or strategic game. My strategic play in this game was reaching endgame as the player with the strongest social game still standing and I succeeded in that. Totally understand that a lack of deceptive game may be a factor in your assessment of my game, and your final vote decision. But I don't think that the suggestion I had a lack of strategy is fair. I just implemented my strategy in a very different way to e.g. you, Reggie, or Deo.
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Meltan
Player Twelve
Posts: 216
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Post by Meltan on Mar 9, 2019 4:30:18 GMT
Deo- thanks for the apology, it's appreciated.
I think you pulled off keeping us at odds really well - but not through this. Pretending to not have voted Uxie just told me you didn't want to work with me going forward, and that made me *more* likely to go after you, not less - it meant that everything came down to Hoopa and co believing you. Afterwards, you changed this to some extent by offering to vote Coba out - throwing me a lifeline that I'd be an idiot not to take, and taking my target off you in the process - but that was a drastic shift from what you had been doing before (note how it required you to finally admit to the Uxie vote) and as such it didn't seem like something you'd been planning to do.
This will probably be my last post tonight, I need some sleep. No question in this one so you can reply or not reply as you wish.
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Deoxys
Player Sixteen
Posts: 232
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Post by Deoxys on Mar 9, 2019 4:50:38 GMT
Agree that in the short-term it made you (as well as Regi/Tapu) much less likely to trust and work with me, but I trusted that since both you and Regi had proved to be extremely rational people and players that as long as I was your best option - as I knew I would be - you would stick with me. I did always intend to swing back to you and offer you a lifeline; as I explained I certainly was not willing to sign up for going to the end with Coba/Hoopa/Celebi! While you say that it made you more likely to go after me in the short-term (and it did), it crucially also made it much less likely in my mind that you would be able to convince Hoopa/Celebi/Coba to unite against me as we saw happened in the game. Just as you were stunned to find out through the Uxie vote that I was not your loyal soldier, so too did I think it would be very hard for Hoopa/Celebi/Coba to be convinced that I was not just as loyal to them and so by continuing to lie about it, it made you and Regi's pleas to them seem that much more contrived and desperate, which is why I think they were disregarded rather than acted on. And then once I had ensured that the two sides would remain divided, as I said I knew that you and Regi were very rational players and so with the Mystics being unwilling to vote me out with you I trusted that when I came back and offered my vote to you it would be accepted.
I knew that at that point in the game you/Regi/Tapu were on the bottom, in need of someone to work with, and willing to take a deal that was your best option even if it was from someone you didn't trust. I also knew that at that point Coba/Hoopa/Celebi were very much in power in the game and so it was very very crucial that I remained someone they fully trusted as by contrast they had *zero* incentive to keep me around if they thought I was disloyal. I thought that the best way to ensure I remained fully in the middle of the two groups was to ensure that anything you three told the Mystics would be viewed as a longshot story from people on the bottom trying to disrupt the majority...which is exactly what "Deo has been playing both sides all merge! Even now he is saying he voted Celebi!" sounded like.
Was it possible I was wrong in my analysis? Absolutely. And as I have already said (though it bears repeating) I wouldn't have done it even if I knew it were the right play if I had known it would cause you as much pain as I now know it did. But the intent of the choice was always a strategic one and never a malicious or personal one, and I did it because I thought it was what was most likely to benefit me in the game.
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Regigigas
Player Eight
Chewing bubblegum
Posts: 338
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Post by Regigigas on Mar 9, 2019 12:07:01 GMT
Regi - Although my vote is undecided, if I had to cast my vote after the opening speeches, I think you would get it. Your flip on the Uxie vote was decidedly less flashy than Deo's, but I think it was just as impactful, especially given that I'm not as sure as most people seem to be that Poi would have voted out Uxie in the revote. Your strategy explanation was excellent and resonated with me a lot, because those stages were pretty much precisely what you did to me and in my case you pulled it off to perfection. I do still have some criticisms and a couple of related questions, though. The strategy doesn't really seem to take into account problems with looking like a snake - specifically, putting a target on your back not so much for being a threat, but because nobody trusted you, and this very nearly got you booted at F8. Did you have a planned countermeasure to that? Or were you just hoping that threat level would take precedence over perceived untrustworthiness? My other question is somewhat unrelated but still about your opener - could you expand on your thoughts about Poipole being a good player to take to the end? Wow dude. Deoxys stayed up all night building WALLS OF TEXT. I better get on these questions fast. Oh, absolutely, my strategy made me look like a snake 100%, and if I had gone into this game myself without any help, I would likely have been booted for exactly that. Threat level management was my blind spot coming into this game, and Tate & Liza helped me figure that out along the way with the whole "pushing people off the cliff" thing. My strategy to cover for being a snake was to encourage and exploit conflicts between players as much as possible, to keep the target off myself, and keep others in the spotlight. The idea was to make people think in the worse case scenario: "Well, reggie might be a snake, but XXXX is such a big threat that we can't afford to keep him in the game." or "Well, I don't know if I trust reggie 100%, but XXXX is coming after me for sure, so I need to vote him off and deal with reggie later." And in the best case scenario, people just get fooled into thinking I'm on their side and their side only, I don't have any other connections or options, and I need to work with them. And this is exactly what I did with Deoxys. Deoxys claims to be a really informed player, but if you read his speech, he knows almost nothing about how I played my game or who I was allied with. He thought I was just blindly following you in F10 when really I was plotting your downfall. He didn't even see it fit to mention in his speech that Hoopa and Cobalion and Celebi came to him saying "Reggie is gunning for you!", when they were telling the truth and he believed my lies over them. He also says in his speech that he thought voting out Meltan meant that tapu and I would become reliant on him -- completely blind to the connection I had with Celebi and Hoopa on the other side. F8 was, like I said, the pressure cooker round for me. Cobalion correctly called out my strategy and tried to vote me out for it. However, my emergency plan to push threats over the cliff instead of me was successful, and after that, I never got any heat for it again, and the people who voted for me became my new allies. It isn't a fun or an easy backup plan, but it's pretty reliable.
Poipole was kind of the one person in my blindspot this game. I don't really know how she voted, and I don't know who she was really close to. In the end it didn't really matter because apparently she was a sleeper threat who had successfully gone off my radar, but not the radar of anyone else. I gotta give her credit for that good UTR game. I thought that I could beat poipole in the end because it (incorrectly?) looked to me like she had done nothing all game, when I had done a lot. At final 6 I believed the vote was going to be on me since I had a guilty consciousness -- I knew I had played really well but most other people hadn't figured me out at that point. I thought I had gotten figured out and correctly identified as the threat I was, but no, actually I wasn't.
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Deoxys
Player Sixteen
Posts: 232
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Post by Deoxys on Mar 9, 2019 12:11:51 GMT
"He didn't even see it fit to mention in his speech that Hoopa and Cobalion and Celebi came to him saying "Reggie is gunning for you!", when they were telling the truth and he believed my lies over them."
I mentioned this elsewhere, but I think it's funny you repeated this given it's just not remotely true. I never for a second believed you over Hoopa/Coba/Celebi at all, and knew they were telling me the truth that you were aggressively bussing me. I didn't work with you and bring you to the end because I trusted or believed you.
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Regigigas
Player Eight
Chewing bubblegum
Posts: 338
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Post by Regigigas on Mar 9, 2019 12:20:53 GMT
I'm sorry, I haven't read every single wall you've posted all across the board, I just woke up. Thanks for clearing that up.
That reads like a point in my favor, then. I guess that proves my backup plan really is reliable, eh meltan? It sure worked on deoxys.
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Meltan
Player Twelve
Posts: 216
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Post by Meltan on Mar 9, 2019 12:20:59 GMT
Alright, quick question for both of you since you're here
It's final 9, but on the vote you're the only one to flip (making it 4-4-1 Celebi-Uxie-Poi). As per the rules, PMs get disabled and all discussion has to take place in the public thread.
Both of you were playing both sides to some degree here. How do you deal with everything you say being public for 24h?
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Meltan
Player Twelve
Posts: 216
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Post by Meltan on Mar 9, 2019 12:24:13 GMT
Tapu - at this point the thing I most want you to answer has already been asked by Coba, but I guess I'll stick it here too - what did you personally do to ensure you wouldn't be at the end against a huge social threat like Poi or Hoopa?
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Deoxys
Player Sixteen
Posts: 232
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Post by Deoxys on Mar 9, 2019 12:28:50 GMT
Alright, quick question for both of you since you're here It's final 9, but on the vote you're the only one to flip (making it 4-4-1 Celebi-Uxie-Poi). As per the rules, PMs get disabled and all discussion has to take place in the public thread. Both of you were playing both sides to some degree here. How do you deal with everything you say being public for 24h? I obviously didn't have a plan for that eventuality since until the deadline I didn't know Poipole would self-vote. I'd have had to either assess if I could afford to take a public stance or else continue to play the middle and just be noncommittal publicly.
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Meltan
Player Twelve
Posts: 216
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Post by Meltan on Mar 9, 2019 12:32:46 GMT
Let's roll it back one round in your case then and say it split 5-5 on the 2nd TC instead. That was a bit more of a predictable outcome (and one I think most people were expecting). Did you have a plan for that?
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Regigigas
Player Eight
Chewing bubblegum
Posts: 338
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Post by Regigigas on Mar 9, 2019 12:40:29 GMT
Let's roll it back one round in your case then and say it split 5-5 on the 2nd TC instead. That was a bit more of a predictable outcome (and one I think most people were expecting). Did you have a plan for that?
Yes, in fact, I did. Let's pretend mespirit didn't medevac. Then the vote would have been, in theory, 5 for someone on our side, and 5 for celebi. I actually had made a deal with Cobalion that if it came to a 5-5 tie, we would work together for the next two votes that one of us would flip on our side on this vote, and one of us would flip on our side on the next vote, so the numbers go back to 4-4, but we also have our 4-man connection between the sides preserved and ready to go as the numbers keep dropping and the sides dissolve. Unfortunately we never really worked it out fully because lol medevac. Also I think the vote never would have actually tied 5-5 anyways, since their target was Mespirit (who was on their side...) and ours was celebi. So assuming mespirit didn't vote for herself, the vote always would have been 5-4-1 celebi-mespirit-meltan(?) or 6-4 celebi-mespirit. But if the vote really did go 5-5 celebi-mespirit, let's say it was like Celebi voters: (Mespirit, Reggie, Meltan, Tapu, Uxie) VS. (Celebi, Coba, Poipole, Hoopa, Deoxys) That's where coba and I would have the deal where I would flip on my side to save celebi, because cobalion liked celebi and I wanted to get closer to him, with the intent that coba would help me next vote. In the real game, it worked out fine as well since (mespirit -> uxie) was 2 people on opposite sides which brought the numbers back to 4-4.
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Deoxys
Player Sixteen
Posts: 232
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Post by Deoxys on Mar 9, 2019 12:44:28 GMT
I did, sending out Mesprit.
Both sides thought that I was solidly with them. Both sides also had some concerns about Mesprit since she was the big wild card in the game, no doubt due to her RL issues. So I approached people on both sides about voting out Mesprit and through doing so 'assuring that then we'll have a solid 5-4 majority'.
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Meltan
Player Twelve
Posts: 216
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Post by Meltan on Mar 9, 2019 12:58:19 GMT
I'm more interested in what both of you would have said in the thread given that circumstance - or was this all planned out to the degree that you feel like you wouldn't have needed to say anything?
@deo - Voting Mesprit on the first vote would have made it clear that someone in our 5 wasn't actually with us, and that would have come up to some degree in public if it had tied. I agree that voting Mesprit was a good option (not only did it dodge the idol, it also was something we would have very likely compromised on) but it doesn't change that if the 5-5 happened, there would be some very awkward questions coming your way which could only be answered in public.
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Regigigas
Player Eight
Chewing bubblegum
Posts: 338
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Post by Regigigas on Mar 9, 2019 13:03:22 GMT
I wouldn't have needed to say anything. I already had made the plan with coba in case of a tie.
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Deoxys
Player Sixteen
Posts: 232
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Post by Deoxys on Mar 9, 2019 13:03:25 GMT
It wouldn't have gotten to a tie. I feel good about the fact I'd have been able to get people to compromise on Mesprit - from the perspective of everyone who thought I was with them, it would have assured a 5-4 majority. And if there were going to be five votes on Celebi and I couldn't sway anyone, I'd have voted Celebi and then done damage control with the Mystics. I knew Poipole was not hiding the fact she had voted Coba over Volc so I thought that would be enough to keep my trust with Hoopa and Coba.
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